Hmmm, I rather suspect this subject might provoke some interesting reactions J


What do you believe is more important; that which unites us, or that which divides us ?
I, for one, would vote for Unity.

As far as I can figure, in our T. community we have Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists, Sikhs, Hindus, Agnostics, Atheists - hey, we might even have a few "alternative-types" here too (no disrespect to any of you / us !) …and even many of those "labels" we identify with, are further broken up into different branches, sects, traditions, churches and so on ...
However, I haven't come here today to play that age-old game so many are so fond of (the game of "my God is better than your God").
Rather than dwelling on what divides people, let's agree to look for some common ground, let's challenge our egos, let go of our desire to be "right" all the time and engage one another with compassion (let us remember that there is indeed a Golden Rule)
My goal is not to make you agree with these ideas about spirituality - but merely to share some ideas and questions that I have found personally helpful in my own journey (and that journey, I'm sure, will continue for as long as I continue to draw breath ... and even beyond that !).
Now, I am no scholar ... but I am of the opinion that there is a big difference between "religion" and "spirituality" - that there is a huge difference between dogma and a personal experience / relationship with the divine.

Spirituality is not the same as religion.
Religion is the shell - spirituality is the pearl within that shell
(Author unknown)

Put another way; Spirituality can be seen as being guided from within, while religion as being guided outwardly.

Whether we acknowledge it or not, there is a Divine flame that shines within each of our souls – what people call it (inner wisdom, holy spirit etc) is really just a difference in our words. Spirituality (not to be confused with spiritualism !) connects us with the profoundly powerful & divine force that is present in the universe and in each and every one of us. It is the true, great, eternal nature of life and it’s uniting force.

You may think that you are not particular spiritual … well surprise, surprise - you ARE ! You are inherently spiritual just by being alive. It’s spirit that animates us all.

You are the one who decides what you believe. When you read a book (or post, for that matter !) you must discern what you do or do not believe - you decide what you agree with, what to consider / examine further and what to discard. Just be sure that your beliefs are truly YOURS and not something you have inherited from someone else.

Do not die with your music still inside you and unheard.

You are the one who decides what to do with your time and circumstances here on earth. No-one else. It is your thoughts and actions, not what happens to you, that ultimately fashions and defines your journey. With a higher spiritual awareness, you can take your rightful place as a conscious co-creator of this world.

When you approach life with a spiritual perspective, you find it easier to treat your body with love and respect - as a temple of the divine and a gift from the Universe that has brought you to live in this world. If we can become aware of the Divine in our body we will respect it ... if we respect it, we will treat it right … if we treat it right, we will give ourselves the stamina to have a long and vibrant physical life AND spiritual journey.

This universe is divine, perfect and one. Trust that whatever is happening, or has happened, has a higher purpose. Consider this; what if the experiences that most people label as being "bad" end up being some of the most precious transformational tools we ever encounter ? (That was certainly my experience) What if those very same challenges are actually blessings that we just don't recognise as such at the time ?

Nice post, Paul. Reminds me of a quote from comedian George Carlin...
"I believe in God, it's religion that I don't believe in"

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomraider Whether we acknowledge it or not, there is a Divine flame that shines within each of our souls – what people call it (inner wisdom, holy spirit etc) is really just a difference in our words. Spirituality (not to be confused with spiritualism !) connects us with the profoundly powerful & divine force that is present in the universe and in each and every one of us. It is the true, great, eternal nature of life and it’s uniting force.

Amen!

This so closely depicts my own spiritual beliefs that it's like you knew what I've been discerning for many years now. I KNOW we are all connected. You call it Divine Flame, I call it The Spark, and I've heard it called The Thread of Truth. Whatever it's called, it will heal the world.

I've had such bad experiences with "religion" that to find so much open-minded spirtuality here, on T-com, has been freeing. I feel like now I can slowly, .... oh, ....so slowly, ... take off layers of protective gear (insulating me against judgement) and finally begin FEELING the power that I call GOD.

I like this post very much.

Perfect subject, I was just looking for this very thing to disscuss.

My daughter changed her religion to pentocostal, she says it's the truth it's the true religion. That other religions don't know how to pray and that they don't know God and they never will have the holy ghost in them. They will never be saved because they have not been baptisied with the fire.

I disagreed and said they have both good and evil in all religions. She said no, if you are not pentocostal you can not be let into heaven.

So we talked about how to become more spitial and how to make a spirital transformation. I said I felt I was taking this BE THE CHANGE Challenge, and feel I was learning more conpassion, more forgiving, I was mor open, I was being more calm more understanding, Peaceful with my own self and that was a step in the right direction. She said it was, but until I am baptisied with the fire in me and go out and teach and do the works of God and live by his teachings in the bible which are what her religion believes, No jewerly or makeup, no TV except the weather no music except Christian. no pants just skirts or dresses, modest and stop things such as have a glass of wine or go swimming , even with the grandchildren, A woman should not be in a swimming pool with a person of the opsite sex. not even my 9 yr old grandson. That's teaching him wrong. Until I change I will never have a true spiritually transformation.

Of course, that which UNITES us is the most important. This is a very unique place where all kinds of people with many different backgrounds can unite in a common goal using the special gifts and talents that are within us. We should accept each others differences and treat each other with a mutual respect. We need to realize that each person that we come in contact with here, is placed before us to give OURSELVES the opportunity to grow and learn. We ALL have an important part to play and deserve to be taken seriously. We should not let our ego get in the way of listening and taking advice from others, no matter where they stand in their spiritual beliefs.

Hey Gloomraider, stoppin by to say nice posting!

Quote:

Originally Posted by gloomraider Do not die with your music still inside you and unheard. This universe is divine, perfect and one. Trust that whatever is happening, or has happened, has a higher purpose. Consider this; what if the experiences that most people label as being "bad" end up being some of the most precious transformational tools we ever encounter ? (That was certainly my experience) What if those very same challenges are actually blessings that we just don't recognise as such at the time ?

Paul, thank you for an open thought provoking and moving post. We are connected to the thread of consiousness and spirituality.

Peace, love and equality.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. But, spiritual beings having a human experience. (Source forgotten, Dyer maybe?)

I dream of a day when the world has been transformed into a society of love, respect and acceptance. Today I actively pursue that dream. I believe we as as transformers are making a contribution, as we transform our inner spirit. For we are all part of the greater good.

Thank you.

"With a higher spiritual awareness, you can take your rightful place as a conscious co-creator of this world."
Wow....Paul you write so eloquently! Makes me soooo dang excited for Bill's new book coming out soon!...as it will be a helpful guide for us all to higher spiritual awareness and be of greater consciousness and truly make this world a better, more peaceful, and loveable world!

Fantastic post.

Thank you for choosing such wonderful words to express what many others are feeling (including myself).

I look forward to more posts and conversation about the ability to be spiritual, without necessarily being religious.

This seems to be the third leg of this transformation stool that I'm perched upon now, I can easily balance on the first two legs (nutrition and fitness) - but without the 3rd, I'll eventually just tip over.

I written about this same thing in my blog so I'll share a little here.

When Jesus was speaking to the woman at the well, she said to him, "I see that you are a prophet. Our ancestors worshipped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem." This woman was focused on religious tradition and practice. Jesus answered her, "…The hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth, for the Father seeks such as these to worship him." (John 4: 19-20, 23-24 NRSV)

Jesus' response is astonishing because he, a religious Jewish man, seems to put the emphasis on what is spiritual rather than what is religious. He indicates that the deeper reality of religion is spirituality.

To understand this in another way, it might be helpful to consider the meaning of the two words religion and spiritual. The word religion in Latin actually refers to piety and the word spiritual comes from the French word esprit and refers to the breath or breathing. You are, first and foremost, spiritual. Becoming religious—practicing piety—is a result of being spiritual. Your breath (your spiritual nature) is given to you by the Creator. You cannot make yourself breathe, nor can you will your breathing to cease. You are intimately connected to the One who gave you the breath and every time you inhale and exhale, your spirit longs for a deeper relationship with that One who is beyond your wildest imaginings.
When you think of being spiritual rather than religious, you are probably feeling that you don't want to simply practice a piety that is antiquated, or that causes you to feel guilty for what you have and have not done in your life. But, when you feel spiritual, you will naturally be led to embrace a practice of piety. Religious piety does not have to be a straightjacket. There is an immense amount of freedom in how you give voice and substance to the spiritual longing you feel within. Perhaps your piety will involve simple silence and centering. Perhaps it will be lived out in the way that you show care and compassion to others. Perhaps you will articulate it through the way that you pray and surrender yourself to the God who loves you with infinite constancy. Perhaps you will manifest it through embracing such virtues as patience, kindness, truthfulness, or unconditional love. Being religious doesn't mean simply surrendering yourself to a church institution. Rather, being religious is choosing to live a life that honors and claims the relationship with God that your soul so deeply craves. And, you may find that sharing the journey with others in a church community will help you live that life with authenticity and joy.

When I first got sober I did not think I would remain that way because people kept mentioning you had to have a relationship with God. I had done the religion thing and it did not work for me. This scared me because I knew if I did not find a solution I would surely die, or go insane, or end up in jail. One day I heard a man say: "All religion is, is a bunch of rules set up by some fanatic" That worked for me. It opened the door. Many years later I have developed this amazing relationship with God that has set me free - my life is dedicated to doing whatever it is He would have me do and trusting that he will take care of everything. I trust God today. God is love and God is unity - no person is better than another in God's world. Even better I realize that as Plantman said above many people share their journey in a church community and that is okay with me, there was a time when it was not. God is everywhere. I choose to mainly serve God within the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous and my classroom, that is where I am most useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GETHERDONELINDA My daughter changed her religion to pentocostal, she says it's the truth it's the true religio. That other religions don't know how to pray and that they don't know God and they never will have the holy ghost in them. They will never be saved because they have not been baptisied with the fire. I disagreed and said they have both good and evil in all religions. She said no, if you are no pentocostal you can not be let into heaven. So we talked about how to become more spitial and how to make a spirital transformation. I said I fel I was taking this BE THE CHANGE Challenge, and fell I was learning more conpassion, more forgiving, I was mor open, I was being more calm more understanding, Peaceful with my own self and that was a step in the right direction. She said it was, but until I am baptisied with the fire in me and go out and teach and do the works of God and live by his teachings in the bible which are what her religion believes, No jewerly or makeup, no TV except the weather no music except Christian. no pants just skirts or dresses, modest and stop things such as have a glass of wine or go swimming , even with the grandchildren, A woman should not be in a swimming pool with a person of the opsite sex. not even my 9 yr old grandson. That's teaching him wrong. Until I change I will never have a true spiritually transformation.

Sorry it's taken me a day or 2 to get around to this Linda - coming off working nights, flying home and catching up with Niamh & the girls often throws me out for a day or so - my apologies for the delay.
I'm NOT going to get into commenting on certain churches and their particular/peculiar creeds but what I WILL discuss 2 points ...

The first is to share a true story about how some dogmas / practices evolve and how they can creep into religious teachings and practices, muddying the waters of a spiritual path...

"Once there was a spiritual teacher whose lectures mesmerised and inspired the many monks and seekers who would gather every evening at his monastery to rewceive his teachings.
The monastery had a cat that liked to hop around on people's laps during these spiritual gatherings, disturbing the peaceful focus of the space. The teacher told one of the monks that every evening at 6pm, the cat should be tied with a string to a post outside the monastery and released when the gathering ended.
This schedule went on for many years, until the teacher passed on, leaving his foremost disciple to give the lectures, as was the practice in his tradition. More years went by and eventually the cat passwed away. The monks immediately got another cat for the monastery and continued to tie that cat to the post outside the monastery every evening during the spiritual discourse as part of the daily protocol.
More years, then decades, passed. Within 100 years, the doctrine of this path was set down in writing and one important spiritual practice was that a cat had to be posted outside the lecture hall during all programs. If a monastery didn't have a cat, it would have to get one, because tying a cat to the post was essential to the sanctity of the place.!"

Secondly, what I'd say is this ... I believe that we would do well to remember the same approach to our concern for other's spiritual health as for our approach to the concern about other's physical health; we may not agree with, or flat-out disapprove of others choices / lifestyles ... yet no amount of explaining, pleading or arguing with them does any good if they are unwilling or unready to change what they do.
The most effective approach, I believe, is to live our own lives and by our own example - let them see the fruits / rewards of our life choices in and on our own lives ... and let go of the need to change them.
If we live authentically, happily and healthily - our lives will speak infinitely louder to them than our words ever could. There is no better way to "witness" to others ...

In the words of Steven Curtis Chapman:

"It's got to b tru

I've gotta be living what I say I believe

It's got to b tru even when nobody but Jesusis watching me

It's got to b tru every single minute of every day

If anybody's ever gonna look at me and say, hey it's got to b tru

Check it out, I got a next door neighbor

And I can tell he's been watching my behavior

Yo he's heard that I'm a Christian guy
He wants to know if that's the truth or a lie
He's got a list of reasons not to believe
Like doubt, dissolution, hypocrisy
It's gonna take some living proof to break through those walls
Yea, it's got to b tru if he'll believe at all"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bndE6TuC5VI

.
:0)

Thanks Paul, I just posted this on my blog

Sarah has invited me to go to her church Sunday, I wanted to go until she said we get there for 8am and it lets out at 12:30 to 1pm I asked if it was because of Sunday school that it was so long, she said no, it's that the minister preaches and the holy ghost comes in you and you scream and speak in tounges and some stand of the pews and dance and praise Jesus. We talked alot about her pentacoastal religion and she said if I get down on my hands and knees and cry out to Jesus and realy pray then HE will fill my soul with the Holy Ghost. Then she said she will come over and fix my hair, I said that's ok, I'll just keep it like I always do and she said that would be disrespective to God and to the people at church if I wore my hair down. I need to put my hair up AND WEAR A dress, prefered high neck and long sleeves or jacket, you have to go modest. To be honest she scared me off.

I was raised Catholic , I wear pants, makeup, jewerly, Sarah said well can't you give that up for one Sunday, Yes I can but I would be going as a fake, not as someone that believes in all this.

I don't know what to do




But now I know what to do, I am not ready for that step and I am happy in my religion and my life. I would go with Sarah as a mother but I don't want to go as a fake, trying to look like she thinks I should look, I am not fake, my heart is geniune and I will stay that way. I love God I believe and I do my best each and everyday I feel God is smiling on my , protecting me and blessing me each day I do what I can to give back to him, but I won't go to a church and not be myself. I don't think that's what Gods intends at all.

Linda - If you go - go as you are as that is how God accepts you. If it is important to your daughter sometimes we do things for our kids we wouldn't normally do. Do not be afraid of her religion, especially if you are strong in your own relationship with God. Put your hair in a pony tail just for one day and decline her help to do your hair. Dress modest, just for one day. At least if you show up you can let her know it is not for you, if you don't like it. Take your own car so you can leave at any time if you are uncomfortable and remember that God uses us everywhere he takes us. Let the light shine through you as one who is accepting and respectful of other people's perception of God. You will be safe and you might learn something about yourself, your daughter, or God. Who knows! Hope this helps.

thanks sweetie, yes your true words do help

Paul said:

The most effective approach, I believe, is to live our own lives and by our own example - let them see the fruits / rewards of our life choices in and on our own lives ... and let go of the need to change them.
If we live authentically, happily and healthily - our lives will speak infinitely louder to them than our words ever could. There is no better way to "witness" to others ...

I agree with that totally. The bible says that we are not to judge. That is something that I have been trying to live by for a very long time. Although it is difficult at times, it makes the most sense. I am a Christian and I believe in the bible, God & Jesus Christ. but who am I to judge anyone for believing something else. If they aren't pushing it on me, then what do I care. I believe that my faith and the bible is right, but until the end, how do I really know that? We don't. What people choose to believe or the way they live their lives is their decision and effects their lives not mine. Ultimately, we only have to answer to one being.
The way I see it is this, if I live my life good, if I am good and kind to others, if I love unconditionally and always TRY to do the right thing then I believe I will end up in the right place. Even if my faith turns out to be wrong, I still believe I will be rewarded for living a good life.

When people judge me or criticize me, I just remember this scripture:

Romans 8:31
What then shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, then who can be against us?

Of course there is a difference between spirituality and religion. Religion is more of the outward ritualistic type expressions. Whereas, spirituality is a more inward and personal attitude.

I think all the comments I've read connected with this thread have made some very valid and insightful comments. I would, however, like to make one point.
As was quoted in the original post by gloomraider, "religion is the shell - spirituality is the pearl within that shell". Remember that the pearl could not have been created outside of the shell. If it were not for the shell's protection from the tide and elements, the pearl would be nothing more than microscopic sea junk. So it is with religion and spirituality. Within the shell of religion, you CAN cultivate your own personal spirituality. True, not every clam or mollusk has a pearl inside, but many do. Not every religion appears to offer an environment which can help people cultivate their own personal spirituality, but many do.

I believe that, regardless of the religion, if your focus is on the outward ritualistic aspects - you will not be very successful in improving your personal spirituality. On the other hand, if your focus is on the personal, more inward, and deeper meanings of faith, what appears from the outside to be nothing more than a meaningless and archaic ritual, can actually be a very spiritually uplifting experience. The primary focus needs to be inward.

Don't automatically count religion out just because, generally speaking, it appears to be more focused on the outward. I think we need to remember that many people could look at us, (the Transformation community),and make many of the same judgments. That we are only focused on how we look, and what exercises we do. That we put too much emphasis on what we eat, how much we weigh, and how we look. But all of us here know that the weight loss, exercise, nutrition, and the natural changes in our physical appearances are nothing more than an outward manifestation of the transformation that each of us are experiencing on the INSIDE. Religions/sects/faiths/denominations/whatever you want to call them, with all of their seemingly meaningless rituals and practices can very well be the outward manifestations of someone's personal spirituality.

Religion is for people who are scared to go to Hell.
Spirituality is for people who have already been there.

Anders, your comment was so beautifully worded. That is exactly the way I feel.
I understand that ultimately, the most important part of my experience is my relationship with Christ. Before any religious ritual, or any work I do in His name, the spiritual part of our (His and my) relationship comes first.

I am not perfect because I am a Christian, I am a Christian because I AM imperfect. Livning by example, is the way I choose to live. In the end, we are all learning through our life's journey and we are all in different places in our spiritual growth. For that reason, we should lift one another up and never, never, never tear oneanother down for the way we each choose to believe.

I am not perfect because I am a Christian, I am a Christian because I AM imperfect. Livning by example, is the way I choose to live. In the end, we are all in different places in our spiritual growth. For that reason, we should lift one another up and never, never, never tear someone down because of how they choose to live the free will they were given by our creator.[/quote]



Aya that is definitely so true, I am not perfect because I am a Christian, I am a Christian because I Am imperfect. Here is another one I am not a sinner trying to be a Saint, but a Saint who sometimes sins.
"It's not who I am underneath but what I do that defines me".
God bless~
Jerome